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Michael is an honorary fellow of the University of Lester.
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He has written over 30 books and articles on a range of themes within the area of modern history, his special fields being European and Chinese history.
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In addition to university teaching in the Uk. he has lectured in France, Germany, Russia, and Australia, and a regular participant at international conferences.
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He has also frequently appeared on television as a talking head in a series of history documentaries.
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So welcome to you, Michael, and I think without any further ado.
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I shall just hand straight over to you. Thank you very much. if I just take this off.
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Got it. well welcome everyone. as fiona said we're dealing today with the most extraordinary woman. One of the outstanding features of the twentieth century.
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Indeed factorism. The ideology to which she gave her name is still highly relevant to modern politics.
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So today, I thought I'm trying to give some of the the essence of Mrs.
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Thatcher as an individual in government. there are so many aspects of the her career.
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We could concentrate on but i'll i'll select some specifics which I think give I hope will give a rounded picture of her.
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I think the first thing point i'd make about her is that she was very much an outsider in the political world to which he contributed.
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Indeed, before she became leader of the Conservative party.
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If you would, said, This is the type of leader who will emerge in the late seventies I don't think many people would have believed you a woman.
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It. A woman who led a would come to leave a traditional party.
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Some would even say a reactionary party and that she would hold office as Prime Minister for over a decade.
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So 15 years leading a party and over a decade leading a government That is extraordinary.
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And I stress that because one of the things that about her was that she didn't advance the cause of feminism, some of the sisters in the movement said she, wasn't a good feminist well, that's their point of view
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I just suggest that it is extraordinary that a woman could have done what she did in that period because she did it.
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We now take it for granted we look back. and Oh, yes, or not became a woman who led government at a party led government.
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But that is so unlikely before it actually happened so that's the first point i'd stress she is remarkable as a woman in dominating a party that was traditionally wholly male dominant orientated and then
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leading a government which no woman had ever done before. Certainly in Britain there are individual ladies around the world.
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This is Bandra Nayaka for example in old Salon, but the idea of a woman leading a government in England, Britain.
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It's truly remarkable, and I think that's the point I i'd stress at the very beginning.
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She is a very unusual person, and a Betty on a very unusual performing some very unusual activities.
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Well, let me share some slides with you. We can make our points in regard to this as we go through the that should now show you Mrs.
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Thatcher tb w I was going to ask what you think those letters stand for, but I won't because it's slightly rude.
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But I better tell you that bloody woman, and that was the 3 letter reference that her own colleagues gave her when she was in government.
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She was so so much a presence, even she wasn't there Physically they felt her presence, and they referred to her, I mean, half disparagingly and half an admiringly.
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Has that Bloody woman you couldn't ignore her whether she was there or not, and I've subtitled the the talk Britain's most successful revolutionary, which may seem a strange claim given that she was a
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conservative. I think most commentators now do agree that she did revolutionize British politics.
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We try to make that point as we go through there's a picture of receptionary, not the everyone based on the keg of our concept isn't it, but it makes this point, Margaret Thatcher a very revolutionary
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and then this statement, which I read in the great biography that Charles moore's written 3 volume biography, and he said, and I think it's a very good line to pick up on her true
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significance lies in. not what she did but in what she was, and I think that's very powerfully put and very pertinently put It goes back to a book he said just now about her being a woman in a
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man's world, and what she represented culturally internationally politically, is so significant.
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Leader party Prime Minister. Extraordinary period with as we said I don't think anybody could have foreseen that least of all herself.
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This is one of the remarkable things she was interviewed on children's television, I think, in the middle seventys one of the one of the children asked her.
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Would she ever be a prime minister? she'd all know I don't think we'll ever see a lady as Prime Minister in my time.
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Now. she may have been self-facing but I think she meant it, and it made perfect sense at the time that she said it.
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One couldn't foresee this why did it happen then Well, you'd have to say from the negative there wasn't anybody that could match her within the Conservative party that when Ted heath had gone having failed in his
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period of government. there really was no body that could match her potential, and I think most of the old guard in the conservative party saw her as an interim. A stop gap will let her run for a bit.
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And then we'll get back to the realize that once she was in.
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She would stay in for 15 years as a leader, and then extraordinarily, of course, becoming a Prime Minister.
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Now I put this Cartoon in I think it's brilliant cartoons, say so much you could write the history of so much of of Britain.
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Indeed of the world through cartoons. and this shows
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A police put at the door of Mrs. thatcher's house? she's he's asking did you get a good look at the man who stole your clothes and round the corner is Tony Blair dressed as Mrs.
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T I, while that's amusing It also makes a very profound point, that what followed Mrs.
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Thatcher was Blairism. it's a John made interlude, of course, but Blairism is essentially a restatement of so many of the thatcherite principles that she had laid down and that's not just an
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observation from outside Tony Blair himself, and then Gordon Brown the other.
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Later late they believed they both acknowledged their debt to her that she had changed the face of politics in in ways which we we can example as we go.
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Through. but I think it it is well worth stressing that that the 2 labour leaders who followed acknowledge that she had prepared the way for them in an extraordinary way.
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Politics are never the same. Indeed, Blairism some would say is factorism.
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It's a second phase of thatcherism which is remarkable point of view, which is to say that the labor party modified itself in the light of what she had done in her years in office just a few pictures here to give us
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an impression of the young lady that she was rather prim on the right hand side.
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Quite a nice smile. On our left there there's a sweet picture of her.
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I I did a book on British history. a textbook for schools. actually, and I wanted to put on the cover a rather nice picture of her, and the publisher said, No, no, no, no, they won't do you've got to show her
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looking grim because that's that's the public memory of her.
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So I did exceed to that in the end we didn't put on at all, and we put a picture of her after scarle on the front, which may be something to climb down.
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But to see where we are going from there. she had a scientific background and a number of writers, including, say, our main biographer, say she's unusual in that sense, most party leaders most Prime Ministers excuse
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me in Britain. came from a legal or an artistic background.
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Very few scientists and she is exceptional in that regard and it's more than just an oddity.
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Some would say that her understanding of the world as It was came from a practical interpretation that came from her scientific training, which is mentoring thought to to dwell upon
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I've listed them and down all of these now i've just listed there.
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The main features of her Korea as she rose from quite humble origins in Lincoln cheer. In Grantham a father was a grocer.
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She lived over the shop. and she rose through our own efforts to get to Oxford. and you got a scholarship to go to opposite, read chemistry and law there.
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Very good background, really, for someone's gonna live in the world in the way that she did so.
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She trains as a lawyer after her training as a scientist, a chemist Stand Conservative candidate.
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I remember that from my very youthful days I remember standing and losing a in in our local constituency.
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In darted. she marries into a rich inheritance, as it were, and to become the wife of a millionaire, which gave her a great boost, of course, in financial terms.
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And it was said that, the husband, or she said the husband was her great support in a way that Churchill's wife had been a great support to him.
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Interesting idea that the fella, the man could be supported in the way that Clementine Churchill had been to Churchill.
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Interesting notion that isn't it in 53 just for detail here that might interest you.
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She gave birth to twins by Cesarean section.
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If one is interested in that regard. It wasn't that she was just too posh to push it was that she was advised.
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It was the best method of the safest method of her giving birth.
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Just a detail becomes Mp. potentially right it up under the heat. Administration becomes a Minister State secret state for educate and science.
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It was then that she gained me sobri Kate of Milk Snatcher, Margaret Thatcher, milk snatcher.
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The opposition forces used to chant because she she took away fee milk from the over 11.
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I think it was something which he didn't ever quite get over, although she said she was simply put into into into action.
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The policy had already been prepared. She was simply implementing what what the Civil Service was already prepared for her.
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Well becomes leader in 75 after heates defeat in the symptoms for election.
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And it's as much dissatisfaction with him as as her popularity at that point that gives her the the promotion to leader.
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It's not that she's welcomed and embraced in that sense.
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It's simply there isn't anybody else around at the time is there?
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And she went with that for long will She that that's a sort of thinking in the Conservative party in 75.
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But once she was in, she was such a dumb personality that she made it very difficult for others to challenge her.
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So her forceful character came through now it's often said about her that she had no sense of humor, and that, and that it's a part of her doerness and her a deep sense of resolution, and purpose.
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And there may be something in that. I did meet her briefly.
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And she seemed very charming and very easy to amuse.
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I thought, anyway, that's that's got to not go down that road, and it becomes a very powerful force within the party.
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I to what you're still party lead it's what you became Prime Minister.
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She toured parts of Europe, and she knew something about the Soviet Union already.
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And she made a famous What? What became an infamous speech in 1978
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When she attacked Soviet Communism and said that they tant the policy that the West had been following really since the days of Khrushchev and Kennedy that Dayton was dangerous because the Soviet Union was still
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a force for evil in the world, and it's at that point that the Red Star, the newspaper in the Soviet Union, gave her the the title, The and Lady, which was meant to be very damaging to her But in fact as
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her adviser, said: Market, This is a marvelous moment for you to embrace that title because it can define you.
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It can define your policies. if I can show you a little clip of this.
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Only a few seconds of it, just to give you the flavor of her arrival.
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Yeah, I hope this will come alive Zoom van from
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I stand before you tonight in my red star shift on evening down
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Face softly made up on my hair. gently wave the Iron Lady of the Western world.
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Well that's just a little clip whoops.
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I need to switch that off. Excuse me the principles of Dayton, and said that we were ignoring the danger.
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Sorry about that. that's a clip by the way if you wish to follow.
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Leave this up There's a very good Youtube conversation between Charles Moore, the great biographer, and an interlocutor.
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From the United States and and it's about 50 min, but it does touch on some very interesting aspects of her career as seen by her.
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But her chief biographer. so I would recommend that.
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But let me go back to slides we were looking at to take it through.
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Yes, the Iron Lady notion she becomes Prime Minister.
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After her first election victory and she has 4 election victories. i'll come to those in a moment which is in itself extraordinary isn't.
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It. it's a woman leading a party leading a government and winning 4 elections in a row. dwell upon that that is truly remarkable.
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Truly remarkable. However, in the first few years of the administration, 79, through to 82.
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She didn't do very well in the popularity stakes and the opinion polls show that she was slipping dangerously near the point where there might be a reaction within her party against her, or indeed, that she might lose the Prime
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ministerial office. However, she was saved. Can I put it that way by by the Falklands event?
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I'll come to that again as we go through a little bit later.
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She was very lucky in the circumstances that came her way, and very lucky in those who opposed her up again.
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I'll come to that in a moment but she has luck on her side, and remember what Napoleon said about generals.
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I don't want good generals I want lucky ones and That's a very powerful notion, isn't it.
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You do need to be fortunate to be lucky in public life to survive because you can never control. the circumstances are going to come along as Howard Wilson said, A week in politics is a long time, and so to survive
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as she did. She needed luck, which she got to use the Laps Got a ride the luck which she did mind the strike.
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I'll come to that. one of the great formative events in her, in her administration nearly wiped out in 1994 ra bombing of the grand hotel in Brighton.
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I mean 5 people died in it. She was She avoided injury, even although she was close to the explosion.
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She wins a second election. Riding on the popularity she gained from the Falklands in 83 Windsor, 30 election in 87.
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And then in 90, is brought down by what she called i've used her word that the treachery of her colleagues, so she resigned as party leader and
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Prime Minister retires to the House of Lords, becomes Lady Thatcher of Casteven.
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And has a 20 year rather dull existence by her own, a definition that she was a woman of action.
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She said she she wasn't happy, unless she was doing things so she did decline quite markedly.
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Once she was out of politics. and some said her
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She becomes quite unworld mentally it doesn't check towards the end.
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Parkinson's that possibly but whatever the cause Some observer, some of her colleagues said it was in part a consequence of her feeling of hopelessness, or or pointlessness after she left politics that
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she. But what made her what she was was action, the actions as she got, and there was no follow up. That can be no fall up, can there? to be Prime Minister in terms of excitement and an action that he was involved in so
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aside a sad ending I said any well there's some applauded. If our opponents applauded again, we might come to that if if time permits.
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I think this is worth mentioning I don't if you know Cracker Poland.
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If You've ever been there, do go in love lovely city of this city, and in the cathedral there slender cathedral, there is a side chapel dedicated to Margaret Thatcher and it says in
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Polish bacon of liberty. Now imagine if you were trade unionist in written, you would find that deeply ironic.
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But what he refers to, of course, was her support. The East European resistance to the Soviet Union, which begins to take flower from *, 88 on before the Soviet Union actually collapses in 91 and we
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can certain quite legitimately, that she and her friend Lonnie Reagan, in part responsible for that collapse in 91.
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The collapse of the Soviet Union again. an unthinkable event a few years before it happened.
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You couldn't think this way, monolith the soviet Union could collapse but it did.
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And why collapsed? Of course we could go to great detail. but certainly we we can say, I think, with justice that she played her part in the cold war being won by the West.
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If that's how we interpret that period so along with Ronnie Reagan staunch anti-communist, and helps bring about the collapse.
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The Soviet Union. so it's a major aspect of her career, obviously, how we actually measure it in terms of detail, of course, is another matter.
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But her approach to politics, international politics, the well, essentially one again, of strong opinions, as with her domestic policies, because she believed that you got nowhere through weakness, you had to be committed, and you had to express your commitment powerfully and
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people would then respect you you can't do it by soft, gentle means, and I think that might come from the realization that she was in a very tough man's world, and she had to be tough, assault in order to survive so I
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think there's obviously a strong connection between a personal position and Her international one.
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The one carries over into the other. Here it just recorded the 4 election victories that she has.
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I went delay on them, but you can see at a glance that she wins in 97 in 83, 87.
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Now she's not in office of course. in 92, but it's still a conservative victory under John Major, which you can put down to her legacy.
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So you could claim that she is one for election in a row.
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An extraordinary success. Extraordinary success! I mentioned that she was fortunate in her enemies.
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And i've just listed there the one that we can say she overcame during her time in office.
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Harry Wilson, Kim Callahan, Michael Foot, Neil Kinnock, General Galgieri, in Argentina, after Scargill, the Ira, and the Soviet Union.
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Not a bad bag, that, is it? Not a bad bad
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The trouble of we're mentioning the fortune that she has at her luck.
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One of her great bits of luck was the labor party structure. At that point.
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It was led. I heard Wilson, who was declining force by the time.
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She meets him as an as an opponent.
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Jim can, of course, inherits that terrible business of the decline of the economy that the crisis which which he had to deal with, and and couldn't because it was so profound.
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And so that is 2 leaders at the point became leader herself, really couldn't offer her much in in by way of equal opposition, and Michael Foot, brilliant writer, really essays but not a good public figure.
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A powerful orator, but but couldn't put his void he couldn't put his ideas across to the electorate in a successful way, could he?
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And of course he hits the party to unilaterally at a time when that was was not a good move.
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Certainly not in terms of the overall electorate. So those I just mentioned, those 4 Wilson Calhoun Foot, and then Neil Kinnick, who takes over in 83, and he was never able to match Margaret
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Thatcher in terms of delivery of ideas, and a powerful speaker in his way.
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But he did acknowledge subsequently that she was a very hard opponent to deal with, and he was never quite sure what to make of her.
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As a woman did he attack her in a way that might be thought to be sexist.
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For example, it's careful not to do that but it meant they had to hold back in his challenge to her very often galchieri.
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Obviously that the leader of the hunter in Argentina, that she takes on in the Falkland War in 82 drunk on a daily basis.
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We now know Galgia. He was never sober.
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One way of getting through life, I suppose. but he she she!
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She wins, she wins he takes her on in a sense, and he loses scar goes. similarly.
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Now Arthur Scarg was a fascinating character.
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He defeated Edward Teeth. I think we can say that on 2 occasions during Heath's administration lead leading the miners strike.
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He tries it under Margaret thatcher and she digs in, and that's that very grim battle over in the orgreave.
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And the the demonstrations, and the strike and it's a close-run. thing and she worried at 1 point in during the strike that scarlet might, in fact, of popular support to push it in his favor.
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But he never did. he never did again. We can touch on that in a moment.
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The Ahra tried to blower up to the 84 didn't succeed and she took a very hard line with the Ira as well.
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She wasn't against discussion and negotiation that she always said you can't negotiate with people who are concerned to be collaborative and violent and brutal they've got to come down before I can
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debate with them and hit tough line now some say didn't work.
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Some say that she made the position worse and that's a matter of opinion, I think; but the Ira knew where they were with so much he wasn't going to give ground to them, and the violence and the terrorism they were concerned with would not
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shift her fascinating period, of course, in in in Anglo-irish relations in and the Soviet Union.
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We mentioned in that her hard line, the iron lady notion.
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She believed the Soviet Union was a force for evil in the world, but she had sufficient understanding of individuals to recognize that that in Gorbachev, who emerges as a man of dignity, and integrity, and she said
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:17.000
you's a man I can trust I mean I can work with, although she detested the background from which it came. she was very willing to treat with him on equal terms, and he was he was very impressed with her.
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:32.000
I mean when they first met at checkers they arranged for an hour's discussion, and it went on for nearly 6 h, because, although they argued very strongly against each other, a developing mutual respect came through what you
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:41.000
couldn't see stalin or khrushchev or lenin ever being in that position. that's again a fascinating development within the Soviet Union.
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:47.000
But it adds to her have esteem as a strong public figure.
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:53.000
It's just a picture of the blow the explosion there's a picture figure there, and somebody said me.
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:58.000
Oh, that's Margaret thatcher I don't think it is. I can't prove it's not
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:09.000
It would be too, too lucky. wouldn't it there just have captured her there. But that figure it's a lady isn't it? so it could be her but I don't I think the lux run out at that point I don't think it
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:12.000
is a lot for the for dogs, for I mean. but but you can see how near she was.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:16.000
I think this is her apartment that she was in. how near it was.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:32.000
Keep coming to a fatal end, cause he added to her standing in the party, she became a great heroic figure, because the very next day she carried on with the conference, saying, We we do not give into terrorism, which was very impressive
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:42.000
very press, whatever your politics, you could but be impressed by this woman doing a boat a seer like or a creative, is with the first like defiance of the enemy.
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:47.000
Cartoon here, which I thought was amusing, and said something quite profound.
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:52.000
If you want something said, ask a man if you want something done, ask a woman.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:57.000
And that was said A cartoon relates to a death obviously in 2 13.
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:01.000
It makes a nice point doesn't it another one which makes a good point.
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:12.000
I think again, from that period. one of the conservative loyalists looking up to heaven to where she's gone, and you've got to train newness looking down wrong direction.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.000
So that's good good expression of the division of opinion over Margaret Thatcher.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:25.000
You either loved her or hated her, admired her, or heated very hard to feel indifferent about it pretty hard, and people still divide over it, don't they?
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:33.000
Fascinating me his perhaps the most famous word she ever uttered in terms of her political viewpoint.
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:51.000
I'm afraid I can't remove that easily but it says there's no such thing as society, and that became albatross around her neck, because the Guardian picked up that statement that she made in 87, and said
00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:07.000
Oh, that defines her, defines her lack of feeling for for people that no thing of society but what they didn't stress. Of course, much, she adds to it is no government can do anything except through people and people must look to themselves
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:12.000
it's an appeal for individual responsibility isn't It it's not a rejection of welfare as such.
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:26.000
It's a way of saying that people must be accountable because their true character, the true worth comes out in their acceptance, and they're they're dealing with the condition they're in which of course offended others who said, no
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.000
she was being short-sighted, and she was being uncaring.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.000
And then this is last sentence which people are attacked over.
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:40.000
People have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, and then her line.
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:50.000
There's no such thing as entitlement and there's someone as first met an obligation was said to define her policy.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:58.000
Her attitude here's the picture I mentioned I wanted to put on the front of my book, and they said no it's too triumphal.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:13.000
So, but I I climbed down that's her looking at her sternest, and that's her her declining period as a peer of the realm in the House of Lords, which he didn't really enjoy very much she I
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:17.000
think she made one of 2 contributions but it wasn't her Metia.
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:22.000
It wasn't wasn't her natural region for action house of Lords.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.000
Yeah, Well, let me quickly run through. I think some key factors in her.
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:33.000
Approach to politics a conviction politician. She believed in what she did.
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:43.000
She wasn't she wasn't moved by circumstance beyond the need to meet that circumstance in relation to a basic principles.
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:46.000
She didn't bend with the wind I think we could put it that way.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:58.000
That that defines now some say it's a strength some say no. it's a weakness, she's 2 committed that can can often lead to hardness, and a lack of understanding.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:01.000
So you can. I argue either way, influence it on her.
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:06.000
Keith, Joseph, and the new rights is it sometimes called belief in the free market?
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:11.000
Van Hiak could famous Austrian.
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:24.000
Economist of this period. he he pressed the idea of the free market in opposition to government and activity, because most of the nation post 45 adopted State centralized policies didn't.
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:36.000
They? No, the Keith Joseph, as disciple of on hike, said No, it the way forward is free enterprise, an open market, and Milton Friedman not the interesting character there.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:43.000
He believed, that the great enemy Oh, okay, freedom, true liberty politically was inflation.
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:47.000
Therefore, Government, who were responsible for inflation. That was his argument.
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:59.000
That was his thesis government spending must be controlled. so that inflation is controlled and that hit those ideas market Thatcher picks up on just on a personal detail. there. Gordon Reese was her Guru and
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:05.000
he's the man who suggested that she modify her voice and modify her appearance.
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:11.000
Give her a softer look. He got hair dresses to style her hair differently, and he taught her how to drop lower.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:24.000
Her voice in such a way it wasn't shrill Now the female voice, as you know, is naturally higher pitch than most male voices and actresses are taught in drama. school.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:30.000
To bring down the voice. Bring it down a register if you can because it's more powerful, more effective.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:45.000
If you go, hi you you can become true and she she she sat and and and studied under, and recent that regard and and did device exercises, so her later voice, which is much modified from her earlier tones.
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:51.000
Is interesting, and that that's due to gordon Reese interesting, interesting man.
00:32:51.000 --> 00:33:00.000
And influence is there her aims tried to sum up here a key approach the aims to end what she called the postwar consensus.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:13.000
She believed that the common acceptance by both major parties, conservatives, and labor of common policies, particularly in regard to economics, was damaging to British interests.
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:15.000
The idea of Keynesianism. You know Knesianism.
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:23.000
The notion that is the i'm in a healthy economy.
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:32.000
John made our claims, wrote to the 1,900 thirtys during the depression, and is aim was to try and find an answer to economic depression, and he found the answer.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:37.000
He put it forward in that in terms of demand. the demand creates jobs that can.
00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:54.000
Creativity creates productivity and everybody benefits, and therefore, if demand drops off and you have recession, have to do is artificially to stimulate economy by creating jobs by by initiatives that that soak up the
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:59.000
unemployed. For example. at most all the parties accepted Kingsanism as a basic policy.
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:13.000
Unemployment was a great enemy, and you cured unemployment, or you limited to it by Keynesian methods that she found restrictive and damaging, and her interpretation Post-war Britain was that change inism
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:17.000
had been too powerful in its influence, and it held Britain back.
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:28.000
So her aim is to reverse Kenzianism, to cut government, spending to cut taxes along with that to restrict bureaucracy.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:31.000
Because if you cut government activity, you can cut bureaucracy.
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:38.000
And this famous phrase of hers to take government off the backs of the people, so that's a summary of her aims.
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:42.000
But in simplified form. How how would you go about that monitorism?
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:50.000
Money control. Pick this up for Milton Friedman. Of course, the idea governments on the are the source of inflation, because they spend heavily.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:56.000
So if you can cut back on government expenditure, you can reduce inflation.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:02.000
You can cut inflation. A second factor. Second method, Trade Union Reform.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:13.000
Her interpretation of ted heed's time was he'd been too weak in the face of Union pressure, and therefore so get written back on an even keel.
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:19.000
The train unions must be brought into line, so they serve the community rather than dominating it.
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:22.000
And then we add that she was never anti-trade union in.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:28.000
She claimed she believed in bargaining. You believed in the free market in that video, and you need to trade unions.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:36.000
What she objected to was the dominance of leaders of trade unions who didn't consult members, but simply followed a political agenda.
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:44.000
That's why she said, the trade unions need reform. they need control in because they're not democratic in their function.
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:49.000
Again. You could respond to that as a trade reading this, but that was her line also believed in accountability.
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:54.000
Margaret Thatcher that local government should account to the people.
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:59.000
It should be responsible to the people, and therefore it should be reformed to make it much more accountable.
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:02.000
It ties in with her notion of personal responsibility.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:14.000
People must be responsible for themselves, and therefore government at the local government which are responsible for handling public money must account for that money, and must account for the activities on the broader basis to the people.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:34.000
They meant to serve so strong. and she does follow that idea of reforming at local level, which, of course, caused great consternation and bitter response at local level, by many, at many councils and labor council of course back form really strong groups against
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:39.000
saturism, as they called it. short term consequences for policies.
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:46.000
Recession, rising unemployment, and social unrest.
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:52.000
Yes, that there are disturbing scenes in the early eighties, riots in in some of the cities.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:56.000
Bristol, London. of course nottingham loom large there.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:02.000
So those what I say in shorthand were the consequences of her immediate policy.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:16.000
In the early eighties monitorism, and there are other reforms that went with it, and that the of the freeing of the market her oppositions, political opposition, and trade.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000
You know this. This was a reason for for recession that she was.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:28.000
She was distorting things by her hard line Well, let's come to one of the those policies I mentioned.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:39.000
Saw her popularity dip in the in the early eightys, but pick up very, very rapidly after her great success over the Falklands again.
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:50.000
Not time to go to the details here, but she stood out again bowed a seal like against the galaxy area threat to take over the fortune's, and it's said by those who around at the time.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:38:02.000
That she was so individual in what she did she wouldn't listen to those who doubted the possibility of winning, and when she got the first sea Lord!
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:06.000
On her side. she said. that's it if he says we can do this.
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:11.000
We can. So the the launching, you know of that campaign?
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:18.000
That that that you know, part naval and part are landed.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:29.000
Campaign in the Falklands, which proves highly successful again. we'd love to go into detail if we can't but she wins, and she wins because she is committed to the idea we have to win she said there's
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:36.000
no alternative to defeating Galieri. Because if we lose on this one, what else could we preserve of British values?
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:43.000
If we give up on protecting the falcon islanders, 98% of whom wish to stay under the British flag.
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:50.000
If we don't honor that we're not prepared to fight for that we might as well give up huge risk.
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:56.000
She took, Of course, that had failed if that's campaign had failed.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:01.000
She would be lost. she could have carried on she'd committed herself to victory.
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:08.000
There again. I won't go into the details of how the campaign was was run, and people did object to some of her moves.
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:15.000
That would be thinking of the belgrano but She comes out of it, hugely popular, particularly among the service class element.
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:23.000
I'm i'm being in portsmouth at the time when the fleet came back and the rejoicing, and the chairs for her extraordinary extraordinary.
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:38.000
Now you might say that's an isolated area but I think the general public picked up that mood. and she was seen as oh, really figured that it's that a defeated fascism in the object canyon full of
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:45.000
it. Well, let's press on the outcome as I say on the political outcomes a key one upsurge in her popularity.
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:59.000
Wrong for the opposition. Yes, Michael foot and then neil connects. didn't really know how to handle this They couldn't attack her too strongly, because that would appear to be labor not supporting the lads out there fighting big
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:03.000
problem for for labor. How did they handle the forbidden question?
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:06.000
And they were caught out on it really, and they lost popularity.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:11.000
And she gained from this again part of her her luck in in that regard.
00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:16.000
Let's come to the the other very biggest suit in her time.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:23.000
The minus strike call was in decline. British cold could not be mind at a profit.
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:26.000
So who it was was in town would have to accept.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.000
The mining was in decline, could it be sustained?
00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:34.000
But through subsidy. that was a big question and of course the social issue came up there.
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:44.000
If you if if you allow minds to close mind is a phone out of jobs, and they're not many workers, they're part of a community that depends upon the mind.
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:51.000
The pit, and the mind was central to saying, the South Wales area parts of the northeast parts of Scotland.
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:59.000
If the minds closed, the community died and it's argued that she never quite grasped that.
00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:04.000
So when she pushed forward for logic. But minds are losing money.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:09.000
Therefore you allow them to close because it suicide the economic to leave them open.
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:23.000
She was saying in effect those victims i've got to face the consequences of an economic decision, and that she led her to being accused of being uncaring the idea that she didn't really care enough about people.
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:35.000
She cared too much about ideas, and about economics not about community. That's one of the charges that you still here, of course, by by those who don't accept her record the there to cartoon.
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:41.000
Which I think is amusing, but make again makes a very powerful point.
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:49.000
So do tell me, do you keep all of these magnificent 5 men with calls, anyway, and there's it even sorry about this.
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:58.000
But it should say under there, Why, is this pit still open that's rather good isn't it she's going down into the debts.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:04.000
And she's she's worried that it's a pit not been closed.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:19.000
Very bitter that, but he makes his point doesn't it and hit here aspects of it closure the minds would distrust whole communities, and then the mining dispute was led by 2 very hard men hard
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:24.000
line me after Scargill, a committed Marxist who actually took money from the Soviet Union.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:30.000
This time, and from Libya we now know face by Ian Mcgregor, a Canadian.
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:35.000
But with a record of being very unfinching and very unsentimental.
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:43.000
If I think didn't work close it if a plant doesn't work, close it, and he took that line over the mining industry in Britain.
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:55.000
Mine closure was, was his his priority, and of course you could see why the 2 met, and of course the Government backed Mcgregor not openly.
00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:03.000
The Government claimed to be Neutral in this but of course it wasn't, and what Margaret thatcher had done she'd learn from a Ted.
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:15.000
He's mistakes. she had ordered the stockpiling of coal. when she learned that a strike was looming, so when Scarle called out the miners in 84. the government had prepared the way.
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.000
There were enough stocks to keep fuel supplies.
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:24.000
I of course. Also that strike never became a full strike in terms of all the miners.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:34.000
A. at its strongest. It was 2 thirds of the miners, and it was only half within 8 or 9 months of the strike, and he never gone backing through a poll.
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:40.000
He never pulled his members, and and she was able to say he's not followed democratic path.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:44.000
He's he's taken a decision at the top of the Nu M.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:48.000
But it's he has no he has no remit from the miners themselves.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:53.000
There's no mandate from them because he's not tested their view on that.
00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:01.000
And that was his weakness. not not being prepared to call a ballot on the strike.
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:06.000
Well, after that first failure we can save her policy down to 82, 83.
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:19.000
We then have a second stage. Most scholars most books talk about this, where you turns to what's called supply side economics, and I've just listed there the key elements of it, reducing taxation to increase incentives
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:24.000
encouraging competition to lower prices, limiting the powers of the trade unions.
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:35.000
So they couldn't block productivity, and then cutting what wasteful welfare payments This is the one that got her charge with being uncaring that she said.
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:43.000
Dependency deprives people of their sense of of self worth and the first rule of government shouldn't be to bail up people.
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:52.000
Haven't got jobs. It should be to provide them with jobs to give them some sense of worth back in a community of work.
00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:03.000
That's her life. but as you can see could be easily interpreted as being anti welfare, which he claims she never was, but he wanted welfare properly adjusted. probably allocated.
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:07.000
So it served the interest of the nation, and not just all particular groups.
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:12.000
Deregulation. Another aspect of a policy i've just listed there again.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:18.000
The big changes in finance, transport, education, hospitals, housing, local government.
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:26.000
They are all brought under this notion of we don't need organization.
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:35.000
And Reg. If you can break down the degree of red tape, for example, you can get much more efficient public services.
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:43.000
That's her notion. So all through her line is my policies aim to serve the public.
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:49.000
Now, of course, that was challenged by those who found it to be not a balanced approach, but that's her line.
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:56.000
So all these deregulatory measures are meant to make the services more accountable to the people.
00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:10.000
They're meant to serve as in education for example as in housing, and this idea of Council House tenants being allowed to buy their property, which would add to this number of a property owning democracy, which had been the great conservative
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:16.000
principle, even before her time privatization not the big isn't it.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:22.000
And then we've listed some of the 50 entries is sold off, enjoying her time.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.000
British airways, pretty steel British cold cable, and miles.
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:29.000
But what what a what a challenge of of key areas they are aren't they?
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:35.000
And there's a revenue derived from privatization building up over her.
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:42.000
He is very impressive that isn't in terms surely of amount running into the billions in the end.
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:56.000
These are figures that people use, of course, in terms of attacking the policies because they claim policies led to Al employment, and the number of industrial workers declined significantly.
00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:07.000
In those 20 years, however, that's entirely a result of political policy. Margaret, that's policies There was a natural decline in Britain as an industrial power.
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:17.000
Britain was moving from an industrial base to a service economy, and so that would have happened regardless of the governments in power at any particular time.
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:25.000
It was a process it's attached of course to the industrial sorry to the to the international setting as well.
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:33.000
Companies weren't buying from britain in the way they had previously, and that was a reality that had to be you responded to.
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:40.000
So those figures don't suggest unemployment but they do indicate the shift in the industrial shape of Britain.
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:46.000
The move away from heavy industry. Now this is remarkable.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:50.000
Comparison of Gdp rates, which is the only way you can measure.
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:59.000
Really an economy through Gdp measurement and you'll see there that Britain does rather well in the thatcher years compared with Europe.
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:09.000
Which shouldn't have been if you think joining Europe would be the way ahead, because it would free Britain to become more prosperous.
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:17.000
In fact, it no. Europe declines at a time in Britain in terms of Gdp output increases.
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:24.000
These are the number of firms created in her time, or all other developing her time.
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:35.000
And the number of self-employed and you'll see that very significantly it's a self-employed that she was very keen to help because she believed the self employed who didn't depend on
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:40.000
stay handouts or state subsidies, that they were the real source of economic strength.
00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:54.000
So those figures are interesting. They follow in part, anyway, from her emphasis upon self-employment, self-employed activity as being one of the great sources of rich recovery.
00:48:54.000 --> 00:49:02.000
This might strike you as odd because you wouldn't think it was gonna happen real real wages in her time.
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:08.000
France, West Germany, U.S.A.: very low. increase even a minus figure. U.S.A.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:21.000
But if in Britain real wages, that's that's capacity to buy real wage earnings that can be realized in in purchase or goods, real wages, not not just a figure itself, but they increase by 26
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:32.000
percent. No small thing that is it. Inflation rate 20 over 20% in her early years, and it's dropped by the middle years to to in half around there.
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:37.000
And then this great principle of hers of a shareholding society.
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:42.000
But each people holding shares increased by 25%.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:49.000
Over. a 1 million people bought their council houses again that's controversial because some said it took council housing out of the reach of those who would rent it.
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:55.000
But people have got to live somewhere, she said so i'm not I'm, not I'm not decreasing the availability of property.
00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:00.000
I'm just giving freedom. People who are already in that property to purchase
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:11.000
Those are the unemployment figures. under her for 1983 to 90, and you'll see how grim they are. By the middle years 3 and a half are approaching 3 and a half 1 million.
00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:22.000
They dip significantly in her later years, but that those middle years were very troubled times, and she was accused of deliberately creating unemployment.
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:31.000
These are figures showing the tax rates that develop under her.
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:35.000
One of her promises while she would cut tax on, did she?
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:51.000
Well, yes, but you would say marginally in 79, a single person's total tax bill was 45 in 1990; that if her term is down to nearly 43, and married with 2 children the
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:54.000
tax rates. There they dropped again. So there is a marginal shift.
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:58.000
So in a sense she kept the promise it's not a huge sweeping change.
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:04.000
But it's going in the right direction. one might say her collapse, of course, is over.
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:18.000
2 major features of her time, the poll tax, which she very badly handled in 89, 90, and then her approach to Europe which upset her own party colleagues picked those at the top.
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:24.000
A nice like plot it, if we can use that word against her and bring her down over poll tax over Europe.
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:38.000
Some say she's already passed her best by then she'd been in office for too long, and therefore she'd run out of that sense of political judgment that had seen her through earlier, and that is an interesting point so when it.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:47.000
Comes to the challenge to her. Michael Hazelton, who was strongly backed by many in the bookies back back, Tim, would you believe
00:51:47.000 --> 00:52:02.000
But when it came to the vote a cheat she wins but she doesn't win by a big enough majority to prevent a second, a a valid being, called, and that was enough for her to say i'm not prepared to stand for second
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:07.000
ballot if I can't win on the first it shows the direction of the party, and she announced her withdrawal.
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:15.000
Just to finish the story there. Little time think he could now breeze in was then opposed by John.
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:21.000
Major and Douglas heard and they'd end Major defeated him, and Hazel.
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.000
I never forgave Margaret Thatcher or nature.
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:31.000
So he and Heath have this long sunk again in the way they were.
00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:40.000
Well, let me end on this run on about. take a couple of minutes.
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:45.000
The beta. With thatrism the case for supportors would push this point.
00:52:45.000 --> 00:53:02.000
Made Britain face economic reality, encourage initiative, created conditions of growth, creating new jobs, advance popular capitalism, and develops the notion of accountability against that opponents would say writers for still emphasize these points.
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:09.000
Encourage individuals and agreed, ignored the needs of the vulnerable in society, cause unemployment in particular areas.
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:13.000
Of course, at her policies, led to recession
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:20.000
And then i'll end on this I promise these are what i've called the Paradoxes of tattooism.
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:29.000
Despite her determination to cut Government spending when she went out of office in 1990 public expenditure was at record levels.
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:42.000
She didn't cut public expenditure overall there were times when it did drop, but overall there's an expansion in in government spending central government was meant to be cut and limited, but in fact, there were more departments doing
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:52.000
more activity under her by 1990 and to European I haven't time to go into this. it's fascinating theme, and here European, but she takes Britain deep into Europe. anybody else.
00:53:52.000 --> 00:54:05.000
Up to that time 1,986 the single European act, which which commits Britain in a way that she then later regretted such had been bad badly advised. but was her work her acceptance and then this last point
00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:14.000
i've made I don't have the ladies think about this, but feminists still say that she didn't serve feminine interests.
00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:23.000
And have comment here. she wished to promote she didn't wish to promote women merely because they were women. that would be to patronize them.
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:33.000
And you can argue for and against that my view and i'll close on this is that looking at it from an objective coupon as I can.
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:41.000
What she did proved what women could do at that highest level of political action, and nothing called close on that point.
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:46.000
So I drive around a bit. But there we are. Okay. Can I stop the share there?
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:53.000
Yes, thank you, Michael. thanks very much for that, and I think we shall just dive straight into some questions.
00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:58.000
Michael no, let me just scroll back up to the top.
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:07.000
No! this is a question from sorry focus. This is taking a minute.
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:17.000
At that time when she saw it first broke through. She was the only woman so presumably men help to get there.
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:20.000
What would you? What would you say to that? That was from Lisa?
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:26.000
Well, they did not, with the intention of her being there as long as she was she was a stop gap.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:30.000
She was she filled in caretak, if you like, until they found some of it.
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:42.000
But she then dominates the men but I don't think they were on her side to begin with and the tory party wasn't Pro-market Thatcher in that sense, until she proved her worth as a leader
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:53.000
as a Prime Minister, but but as a party leader. it's because there was nobody they could put up against her in 75, and they were so upset with what heath the the done.
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:58.000
His failures that anybody would do in the sense rather than Heath.
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:06.000
And I think they were lulled into thinking Well, she'll do as a stop gap a fill in. But yes, you're right in the sense that it was man who chose her.
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:12.000
But I don't think they chose her with the motive of of promoting her in the way that she did rise.
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:26.000
Okay, interesting, right? Let me find the next question. yes, this is about the the I re. when you were talking about , and standing standing up to the ie.
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:30.000
This is from Patrick. Did she really beat the Ira?
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:38.000
History, and the forward trained of irish unification which you're starting to do some of that coming through.
00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:40.000
Yeah, good question. I wouldn't put it as a as victory and defeat.
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:43.000
No, that would be too strong, because obviously the problem goes on and goes on.
00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:57.000
Now. but what I had in mind was that she wouldn't make any concession. There were there were voices in politics the time saying, Look, although the Ira are terrorists, they do have a point politically.
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:06.000
You've got to recognize that before you can reach any resolution and she refused to accept that line of reasoning on the grounds that it was giving into terrorism.
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:17.000
So, whatever the Ira case might be in political terms whatever value it had, or credit she wouldn't accept because it was presented in a way that was that was blanched over by terrorism.
00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:28.000
Now that doesn't mean she wins the battle Obviously and they already become even more entrenched in some ways in their bitterness and and dislike of her and and her her government.
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:33.000
But it by standing up to terrorism I think I put it that way.
00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:44.000
She showed that she wasn't going to be a soft touch and she wasn't going down the road of concessions that some had put to her as the logical way to reach a settlement.
00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:51.000
Somehow in Northern Ireland. in the end. Of course, we do get concessions on both sides.
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:55.000
Unionists and national side in the end that's wrong long past her time.
00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:03.000
But some would say that her resolution and her resistance to concessions to the Ira was a form of victory in itself.
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:08.000
But I I take the point, of the question it's not It's not a victory in terms of defeating the Ira as a movement.
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:15.000
Obviously not but it puts her in a in a position of defending what she regarded as the democratic process against terrorism.
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:20.000
That was her line, and I think it was popular, too, in in in Britain, anyway.
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:24.000
Broadly, and did add to a victory in 87.
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:34.000
For example, Okay, and next question is from Steve, and it relates to another question kind of from Sue as well.
00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:52.000
To what extent was that empowered by the support of most national newspapers? And that leads into a comment from Sue, which was when you were talking about the kind of list of enemies that she had overcome and it could be said
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:59.000
that she could bet easily have overcome sort of some of those people and the progressive approaches.
00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:06.000
And as people like Kenneth were demonized by the press, so what what could you say about that?
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:10.000
Well, of course the press is divided isn't it it's not wholly anti or pro thatcher.
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:13.000
He taught the guardian, I mean the voice of the intellectuals.
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:23.000
We sometimes think that that maintain a very consistent anti- thatcher line, as with that publication of her statement about no such thing as society.
00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:28.000
The Guardian throughout her time was opposed to her. the Daily Mirror was opposed her.
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:33.000
Now you take the express and the male. Of course they were Pro thatcher popular papers.
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:43.000
The times tried to be neutral as it always does but I wouldn't have thought you could argue that she supported strongly by the press.
00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:55.000
I think it's divided. and certainly, some of the most damaging things said about her lack of care, for example are said by by the Guardian and by the mirror and mirror.
00:59:55.000 --> 01:00:08.000
Of course the highly popular paper guardian was limited circles but influential certainly among intellectual classes wasn't the Guardian. So I wouldn't I would totally accept the idea of the press was on her side the popular press
01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:13.000
was. Yes, the tabloid, if you like, and they represent a greater number of readers.
01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:18.000
Of course, the express and the far out way, the Guardian and the Times in terms of readership.
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:26.000
So that that one could add that to the the the comment but I wouldn't have thought that that there's a press control exercise at any point.
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:38.000
And she she got some very grim reviews from from the garden, as I say, and the mirror and I pick those 2 as the anti Thatcher papers and the Pro Thatcher.
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:43.000
Of course, the male and and the express so I I think it's divided.
01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:50.000
I think the press was divided, as was a nation in many ways, with with entrance on Margaret Thatcher side.
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:55.000
When it came to choices. people did tend to back her as out for elections show.
01:00:55.000 --> 01:01:01.000
That's what an accident is it if you can win 4 elections that must say something about the mood.
01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:05.000
The attitude, the leaning of the electrode
01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:20.000
I I put that that level. Yes, okay, right another question I suppose it's kind of almost related to what we've we've just been talking about there, and a question from Helen she becomes Kenny Everett at the
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:27.000
Conservative, , conference in 1983 declining , , like Michael Fitch, stick away.
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:41.000
Let's born Russia not disowning Such didn't she say that it was it was a joke, and that you shouldn't take the joke too seriously.
01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:48.000
He always she wouldn't do what he was suggesting and he didn't really intend her to do that, and she said you must take the joke.
01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:54.000
That was her line, and there's no need for me to denounce it, to go back on it.
01:01:54.000 --> 01:02:02.000
It was the conference that he was providing light entertainment in that particular way of his, and so don't take it any more seriously than he intended.
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:07.000
No obviously that wouldn't satisfy up that was her comeback Anyway, on it.
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:13.000
I don't respond because it's not serious and either satisfied with the dance or it doesn't.
01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:16.000
But that that was her line. That was her a reaction to it.
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:20.000
I do remember it actually. Yes, for the big the big hands yeah didn't it?
01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:28.000
Yes, even even I remember that. And okay The question from Sheila.
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:33.000
Hmm! very relevant to myself, being from north of the border.
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:40.000
Particularly was the pull tax her biggest economic policy Mistake?
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:52.000
Yes, short answer yes back on she didn't understand what She was letting herself in, for she said she was badly advised, and she may well have been because obviously you get your information from advisors.
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:58.000
That's their job, but her her rush to introduce it she didn't need to.
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:02.000
There was no necessity to introduce the poll tax When she did, she could awaited
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:09.000
It wasn't a great demand from the public I mean the rate system didn't need reform.
01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:13.000
There's no doubt about that. but the idea of a poll tax very badly.
01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:21.000
Handled, because it gave the impression that she was punishing people financially as individuals for what
01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:38.000
It seemed that she was picking off people, and and and since finding them, what meant was, people should pay for the services they receive. and therefore, in a local community the right not a good way of doing that, how do you pay for education the
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:45.000
police the streets to be clean people all benefit from those things, and therefore they should pay their fair share, and so to Poll pull.
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:52.000
In that sense, people paying for what they receive would seem to be a perfect piece of justice in her mind.
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:57.000
She didn't understand the politics attached to it and since you mentioned north of the border.
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.000
Why, what is it? Scotland? She picked on to impose it?
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:11.000
And that led to very strong resistance among Scottish people, which then carries over into into the rest of Britain; and it's seen as an act of arbitrary government on her part.
01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:14.000
So. Yes, the answer is, it was very badly handled.
01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:18.000
She made a very big era there in 89, 90.
01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:23.000
Yes, yeah, right? Okay. Another question. and then, I know that we've got some other questions that have come in.
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:26.000
But I think what we may have to do because we have run on a bit.
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:32.000
We'll take the rest of the questions are we and get these answered afterwards, and i'll send them to you.
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:45.000
My, but we've had a 2 or 3 questions about I guess her legacy and I think it's kind of summed up by a question from Kevin.
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:53.000
Do you again that some of our convictions led to poor policies that have since been discredited even by the Conservatives.
01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:59.000
So you're talking about pull tax you're talking about conversation. look at what's happening with energy at the moment.
01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:09.000
You know the the railways without replacing all of this. yes, i'd accept those criticisms.
01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:12.000
Yes, they do. They They were reverse, they were, they were.
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:22.000
You can say Ill judge policies and they're out and they did not succeed in achieving the outcome. She had in mind what I think is important about her legacy.
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:27.000
There is not so much the economics which we could obviously debate one way or another.
01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:33.000
But I go back to the the response of of the Labor party, who said that she had changed the character of politics.
01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:39.000
She brought into politics a sense of realism that had been lacking prior to her.
01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:45.000
In other words, You had to face the world as it was and you couldn't simply stick to ideals being presented.
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:47.000
That's what Neil kenneth picked up on very quick.
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:52.000
Remember, the 8 is famous 85 speech to the Congress, which was booed by many, he said.
01:05:52.000 --> 01:06:04.000
Look the real world is like this comrade and you can't go around putting your ideals of socialism in if they don't work in the times we're in we've got to be realistic and that was almost saying
01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:16.000
That's a piece of pure thatcherism the world is like this: Britain's in this world at this point, and this is what you have to do in order to respond to the crises and the problems that confront britain you can't
01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:24.000
follow an ideological line and be successful. that is, I think, her biggest legacy, and one acknowledged.
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:35.000
As we said before, by Tony Blair, who became Thatcherite, would suggest in his approach to Government one of her greater successes, someone said, is terrorism.
01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:40.000
I see you put as a as a a degree level question.
01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:49.000
University that Margaret thatcher's greater success. was Blair-ism, which is really a new form of saturism.
01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:54.000
Now that was a notion that was a notion and I think there's so much in that to to dwell upon that.
01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:59.000
She changed the way politicians thought about politics in Britain.
01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:06.000
Now you might think that a reactionary or regressive policy fair enough, but that is what she did.
01:07:06.000 --> 01:07:19.000
And it it couldn't have been done any other way I I would suggest at that point, and I wonder whether any other individual apart from her, could have done it in the way that she did which may come round the fact that she was a
01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:27.000
woman operating in a very difficult world. Every move she made was subject to, because the way she dressed and appeared criticized the whole time.
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:30.000
Every every time you open a newspaper. There was some comment about her.
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:35.000
Her dress and style, and she had to live with all that, and she did it.
01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:44.000
I would suggest very successfully. accepting Oh, the other point you made about the failures on economic policies in detail and the reversal of privatization.
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:51.000
Yes, yes, but it's her impact on politics. I think which is the the biggest aspect of her legacy.
01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:57.000
Okay, right, folks. I think we need to leave it there because we really are out of time.